EP 11 | Rising Above Chronic Illness with Michael Brovac

In this powerful episode, Michael Brovac, a speaker, coach, musician, and founder of CAM-O, shares his journey from battling the rare genetic condition IPEX syndrome to becoming a beacon of hope for those dealing with chronic illnesses. Michael discusses the trials of his early life spent in and out of hospital rooms, the loss of his younger brother Cameron, and the transformative conversation with his mentor that changed his life's trajectory. Through his work with CAM-O, Michael aims to transform the lives of young patients and their families by turning pain into purpose. This episode is a testament to resilience, the power of mindset, and how purpose can be born out of the darkest circumstances.

You can connect with Michael on social media @michaelbrovac 

Or visit his websites: https://michaelbrovac.ca & https://camo-o.ca

Transcript

[00:00:00] Katie: Today's guest is someone whose story will stop you in your tracks in the most beautiful way...

[00:00:07] Amanda: Michael Brovac is a speaker, coach, musician, and the founder of camo, a community and movement that supports young people navigating chronic illness and hospitalization. But behind all the titles is a man who faced some of life's deepest challenges and has chosen to rise with purpose.

[00:00:25] Katie: Born with a rare genetic condition called IPEX syndrome. Michael spent much of his early life in and out of hospitals. He endured surgeries, transplants, and unimaginable losses, including the passing of his younger brother Cameron, who shared the same diagnosis.

[00:00:45] Amanda: But Michael's story isn't just about survival, it's about transformation. In this episode, Michael shares how a single conversation during a bone marrow transplant changed the trajectory of his life. explore how he went from feeling like a patient trapped in his diagnosis to becoming a powerful guide for others through coaching, through music, and through his advocacy.

[00:01:10] Katie: If you've ever felt alone in your struggle, if you've ever questioned your worth in the face of illness, or if you're looking for proof that purpose can be born out of pain, then this episode is for you.

[00:01:26] Amanda: Welcome Michael to the podcast. I'm so happy that you're here today. 

[00:01:31] Michael Brovac: Thank you for having me. I'm very happy to be here. I'm excited to do this. This is, this is really cool. 

[00:01:37] Amanda: as I was just saying, I think that you are a perfect guest for our podcast. I think that your story, your mission, everything you stand for is so perfectly aligned with what we do and what we believe in. And I'm really excited for our listeners to learn about you and where you came from. So oh, man. I guess if we start from the beginning, your story really started when you were born, 

[00:02:04] Michael Brovac: A hundred percent. Yeah, no, first of all, I just wanna say agreed. I was very excited to see when you guys were doing this, and that's why I messaged you, and I was happy that we could make this happen. 

and so to kind of get into like my intro, when I was born, my life experience basically consisted of just being in a hospital. So I was born, I was diagnosed to a rare disease called I Pex syndrome. And so it was basically my immune system would attack itself and it had no memory. So anytime that your body, let's say, would get or a sickness or a cold, your body naturally would develop antibodies and use like, you know, the T cells and all these different things, not to get too sciencey, to basically prohibit your body from going into a deepening, dysfunction. For myself, body didn't have that. So unfortunately up until I was about 18 years old. I had things like brain tumors, arthritis, kidney disease, liver disease, lung disease, 30 medications, day and night. My existence basically consisted of either being in a hospital room, or in my living room or maybe the 10% of the time I would go to school, you know? And so this whole idea of health and what really health means wasn't in my perception. I didn't know what health was. 'cause all I really dealt with was sickness. So that's, that's kind of a quick intro into how I grew up. and then along this journey, my brother Cameron was born when he was born in 2005, we were two outta 50 cases worldwide with this genetic disease. So Cam and I were kind of and and yeah, and sadly my little brother passed away when he was 10. And that's kind of, that's what motivated me and built me into the man I am today and kind of like what I choose and desire to build and go forward with my purpose. 

[00:03:59] Amanda: Yeah. I know that Cameron's story is a huge part of your life now and a huge part of what propels you forward. and that's just wild to me that like you just said, health was never a part of your reality, from the day you were 

[00:04:14] Michael Brovac: Yeah. 

[00:04:15] Amanda: It was basically 

[00:04:16] Michael Brovac: Mm-hmm. 

[00:04:18] Amanda: Yeah, 

[00:04:18] Michael Brovac: Yeah, it was we didn't know what life was, to be honest, but because of that, our existence was very rich at times as well, because we didn't have an expectation, you know? So I, I would always say, and my family would always say like, we were just, we were a team, so. You know, my dad and mom, we were in the hospital, they were right beside us.

You know, Christmas time, my dad had to work, my mom was there, my mom needed a break, my dad would come, you know, and then it was like aunt and my uncle and my cousin and all of us just kind of adapted to the circumstance that naturally felt and we believed that would never change. So even though it sounds really crappy now, like looking back and coming out of it it was pretty beautiful at times, you know?

And it's definitely a unique perception to have when, going through things like COVID and having a lot of people, you know, nowadays struggle with deficiencies and chronic illnesses and all this stuff. It's, it's totally, it's rich in that way because it's like full circle. 

[00:05:22] Amanda: Like you, you didn't take a day for granted like the next day was never promised, right? 

[00:05:27] Michael Brovac: It's funny though, 'cause like personally I did take days for granted because it was like mentally and emotionally I didn't want to be alive naturally. my brother gave me a purpose to exist. because my brother was around, was like this teammate connection where that if were suffering together, we could endure whatever came our way. Right. And that's kind of what our family built our whole childhood off. And so did I take a lot of things for granted? For sure. Did I, did I necessarily have the opportunity to do otherwise though as much? No, not, not really. So hindsight, looking back, it's like I did take for granted a lot of things that I wish I, I implemented further and sooner when my brother was alive. That's not how life goes. And that's why nowadays that's what I choose to try and lead and, and, and showcase to people. You know,

[00:06:25] Katie: So Michael, were you in and out of hospital or were you like a. Permanent resident almost.

[00:06:32] Michael Brovac: it was interesting because majority of the time I was in and out, but there was like long-term stays when I was in there for six to eight months,

Same with my brother. Like, it was always, if he was in, would've been beside him. If I was in, he would've been beside me. And then there was times that me and my brother were both in, and my dad would be in one ward.

My mom would be in the other, you know, and that's where it's like, I remember vividly, like during a time when my brother was passing and I was going through a really bad mental health spout. I was in the psychiatry ward, like, because I was struggling like with suicide and like all this stuff. And then my brother was in another ward because he was on his deathbed practically. So then my parents were in this cross between being there for me, but then being there for him. And so our life just kind of consisted of that constantly. And so was I a permanent residence? Not necessarily, I don't, I don't, when I talk about it, I don't, I don't declare the lifestyle of what it is to be a sick kid or someone who is ill as just being in the hospital.

That is the, that is a day-to-day existence. And so that's where I like to tell people that's why I was sick for 18 years. That's why it sucked for 18 years, because even though I might have not been in a hospital directly all the time, I was still in the hospital mentally or emotionally,

[00:07:55] Katie: Mm mm

[00:07:56] Michael Brovac: So.

[00:07:57] Katie: And if you feel comfortable talking about it , what was the difference between you and Cameron in terms of him losing his life and you actually surviving?

[00:08:07] Michael Brovac: Great question. Very quick, very direct guidance. My brother had no one. and that's where a lot of my life, I, I carried a lot of guilt because I was so stuck in this circumstance and I couldn't be a big brother to him like I was in other instances, like nowadays, like what I do as a coach and trainer, like I mentor youth in my community all the time, but I never did that with Cameron because I wasn't who I am now.

Right. But that circumstance created who I am now. So for Cameron, he didn't have anyone necessarily to be like, Hey, man, like, you realize you're more than a kid in a hospital bed, right? Or like, Hey man, you know, you wanna go to the military? Well that's very possible, right? Like I had that, my mentor was the person who came and saw me on my deathbed and was like, you gotta stop all this shit and you gotta recognize that you gotta live for Cameron.

So it's really interesting how coincidentally it's like, yes, it was either one of us, but it worked out in a way that I don't believe it would've been possible for both of us to succeed. without Cameron passing, I would've never met my mentor and I wouldn't have put myself in such a detrimental circumstance. And if I was the one who passed, I don't believe my brother could make it, without anyone to, you know, kind of guide or direct or be there for him. 'cause again, we were in the same roles, you know? So that's how I would explain that.

[00:09:35] Katie: Wow, that is so powerful. How did you meet your mentor? Was, was he someone that you got connected?

[00:09:42] Michael Brovac: yeah, that's a good question. Okay, so. So little background. So my

[00:09:48] Katie: I.

[00:09:49] Michael Brovac: passed away in late 2015, early 2016. at this point in time, I was about 15 years old, turning 16. And so I was very sick. Like I was very weak. Like I had kidney failure. I had this thing called nephrotic syndrome where basically you're, you retain fluid so your body isn't able to filter you know, salts and all these different things that your body naturally has to expose, right? So my organs and everything else was starting to fail, but what happened was after I saw my brother pass away, I quit. So I checked out and I basically said to myself like, okay, I'm next. Like this is, this is what I been put here to be is just a sick kid and die just like Cam. I had this very deep victimhood mentality, which in my opinion the medical system and being in a hospital, that is what it creates. Especially as a child going through the system. And when you're subconscious and everything's developing, all you know is sickness and all you know is being something less than your circumstance. And I don't, I don't wanna say that's intentionally by anyone or anything, but that's just the reality, you know? And so for me, I got so much more sicker after cam pass because of self. Like I didn't take care of myself. I stopped eating, I stopped drinking, I stopped wanting to live. Two weeks after Cam passed, I was in the hospital. Me and my parents had to go in the same ward that we just watched Cameron pass away for me to be admitted. You know, like I just, I just quit. And what happened was the doctors approached me and they basically said, Hey we are not sure how much more life you have. your kidneys are failing. And we saw what happened to your brother. And so there's this procedure called a bone marrow transplant. And so basically it was a 50 50 chance, live or die. You have to go in, they kill your old immune system with the hopes and as aspiration that a new immune system or new white blood cell count from a donor will graft with your old one. So then there's transformation. The problem is, during that time, you don't have any protection. So if you get a little cold, you're gone.

You know, you get a little by, by an insect or an infection or whatever. Like you, you're gone. So you're in quarantine, you're on chemo, you don't have anything. So when everyone kind of was pushing me towards this direction and I made the choice 'cause I was turning 18, to take this procedure, my mental state was I don't want, my parents have to suffer the loss of their other son by suicide. So if I'm gonna die, I am gonna go out in this transplant where I could be looked at as some sort of like, oh, he died fighting. You know? But lo and behold, I didn't want to be there. And then this is where kind of like. Faith and everything comes in when you're in the medical system and when you're in the hospital all the time, the lifestyle that creates is, it costs a lot of money be in that, you know, you gotta talk about food, you gotta talk about transportation, gas.

We were going from Hamilton to Toronto every day. So that's an hour and a half, two hour drive, depending on traffic, right? And then of course when you're in that position, you're also, you gotta buy wifi, you gotta get subscription fees and all this. So we knew from the preparation our doctors gave us that we were gonna be in this hospital circumstance for at least six to eight months, isolated quarantine, and really have no quality of life. So my aunt, who was like a second mother to me, made a GoFundMe page and luckily, and thank God that we reached our goal within literally a week. But something that came even greater from that was my mentor saw that page. So the way it worked was 48 hours, 72 hours before I was gonna go into this procedure. This random man just like knocks on my parents' door and he has this big video camera. He comes in and my parents just kind of like let him in and so freely, and I was kind of like, what the hell? Like, I don't know who this guy is, whatever the case is, right? And he comes in, he puts a video camera on my kitchen dining table.

I'm sitting across from him and he hits record. And the first question he asked me on camera was, have you ever thought about killing yourself? And that's how I met my mentor.

[00:13:59] Katie: Wow.

[00:14:00] Michael Brovac: 72 hours before the procedure and this random man and stranger who I didn't know, just confronted the biggest belief air that I was going to go into this procedure to carry out. And so when he met me, he saw my values and he interacted with me as a human, which a lot of the time when you're a sick kid, you're not interacted with as a human you're looked at as just this, this kid that you know is struggling. So you gotta be comfortable and, and nice and make sure not to offend them.

And like all that stuff, right. Christian didn't give a shit. So he just came out guns blazing, first question. Then he was like, yo, I see you like sneakers, right? And I'm like, yeah. He's like, okay, well how would you feel if like one day you come out with me and my friend Jordan and we do a dunk competition, you know, or you judge or you get to play ball.

Like, would you ever wanna learn how to properly shoot? Like all these things, right? Pushing me, trajectory me towards a goal. And so then that created the steps to like, he would check on me, he would text me, he would, you know, he would, he would come into times where like the catapult for change was when he made me realize that I was more than a kid in a hospital bed. Right? So that's, I know I kind of went on a tangent there, but that's in a nutshell how I met Christian, my mentor.

[00:15:16] Katie: And you're still working with him today?

[00:15:19] Michael Brovac: So it's actually very interesting. Great, great. Great question. 'cause recently, I love him, but like we've recently, I. Mentor and I don't, I don't know, how would you say like a, a mentor and not a client, but like a, just someone spent that relationship, right. That dynamic naturally changes, right?

So as I'm becoming my own man and I've made decisions in my life that has trajectory towards a certain future, he's also doing the same, right? So I was seeing him weekly for years, years and years and years. We were part of a men's circle together. He created just constant check-ins. About a year now. I chose to step away to take everything that I've learned everything that he's taught me and all my other mentors and fellow brothers, and learn what it's like to be on my own and make my own decisions and make my own steps of action going forward. And so. Do I see him all the time anymore? No.

Do I talk to him all the time anymore? No. But do we still have that Brotherhood connection and Bond where I'll get a text from him and he'll be like, Hey man, I'm just thinking about you. Hope you're well, vice versa. Yes, all the time. And what's beautiful is now he's finally taking initiative to after his dreams and his projects rather than always helping others. I'm going the opposite, where I'm taking the initiative that I've been helped so much, I'm going to help others. So it's this very interesting dynamic that's kind of shifted. So that's what I would say to that question. 

[00:16:57] Amanda: I love Michael. I love when you talk about how Christian helped change your perspective as far as was possible for you and to see yourself as more than just a kid in 

[00:17:13] Michael Brovac: Yes, 

[00:17:14] Amanda: bed. I know when we spoke before, you talked about how there really wasn't any expectations put on you when you were younger.

I would love it if you talked about that a little bit 

[00:17:26] Michael Brovac: for sure, for sure. No, that I, I actually love talking about that because it's the biggest, like the biggest, like I told you. So feeling, you know, when I talk about that, because you look at me now and you don't know a thing about my past, you would never assume I came from the circumstance I came from. And I remember there was a big time where all I associated myself with was my story.

I. You know, and now being like a player development coach, doing, being a speaker, entrepreneur, trainer, like I have all this other stuff that overbearing, that beautiful thing that now I get to say, Hey, guess what? I also have this, you know? But for the longest time and all my life, I had no expectations put on me until I met Christian. a lot of that was my doing because I was very selfish and weak. And I chose to take the victim card a lot because that's all I knew, right? So anytime I was in school, or anytime I was in, you know, camps, or the odd time that I would be able to get out and be alone or like be away from my circumstance of hospitalizations, I just, I didn't spend it productively because again, I was so stuck in this, like this hospital mindset, for example, or this sick kid mindset. And so was there any, was there ever any expectations of me like. Saying like, Hey, you know what? You need to have this grade and you're gonna go to this university and you're gonna study this, and you're gonna know. Because it was like, we're just happy if you're breathing. You know, we saw what happened to Cam and as long as you're breathing, man, we don't care what you do. Right. And that was mindset. My mindset too. So then therefore, your close unit and everyone around you is replicating or, or reflecting the same thing that you're living. There is no, there is no point to change, you know, and death was this idea that like, was bound to happen no matter what. Death was something I had to face really early. So I wasn't really a, I, I don't wanna say I'm not afraid of death, but I've, I've accepted it and I've seen it countless times that like, it just, that was it, you know, that's the expectation. So when it came to like being in high school or grade school and the odd time I did get to, you know, be on a basketball team or I. Be in math class or English or whatev. Did I ever try to apply myself? No, because everyone around me and myself was just like, I'm here. You know, even though I can't walk up the stairs 'cause I got arthritis in every joint in my body, I'm here. That's a win. Right? So then learning math and English was not on my priorities, right?

Because the expectation that was set from me was like, you're gonna die. So why? Why am I gonna spend my time learning this crap when I could just play video games and be stuck in my isolation and weakness and feel these feelings even more, the victimized being even more, right?

[00:20:21] Amanda: Yeah. And so I think that Katie and I speak about this a lot with guests that we've had on the podcast, where I think it's natural to go through that phase where are in that kind of victim mentality and this, poor me. This is my circumstance, and you're not yet ready to take responsibility, that you actually do have a bit of a say. And if you resign yourself to. That lack of purpose, I think that has more of an impact on the outcome than may probably anything else. Would you agree? 

[00:21:06] Michael Brovac: For sure, for sure. Like there's great things about being a victim. Let's be honest here. You know what I'm saying? Like, like it's very easy to be a victim. It's very convenient and it's, it's. It's, I don't wanna say it's fun, but it's, it's predictable, you know? And it's, it's something that you don't have to change.

You don't have to take action. You don't have to grow, you don't have to take risk. You don't, you don't have to do anything other than what you already are doing. So as far as like that process of shifting, shifting from a victim to, let's say a victor or, or taking accountability or whatever the case we wanna say, I think it is a natural process.

And I think that life is the only thing, or universe, or God, or however you want to say this will be the only thing that'll change that. Because I feel like in my experience, at least, like you need something externally that hurts you so bad to rattle your cage that much to want to change,

[00:22:04] Katie: Oh yeah. Hmm.

[00:22:05] Michael Brovac: you don't have that, there is no point of changing.

'cause again, you're just comfortable in that scenario, right. And for me that, that was when I saw my brother die. Right? Like at first it was like I'm next, but then when my mentor Christian confronted me and said how selfish I was living, and asked me the question of how do you think my brother feels watching me die in a hospital bed? You know, when everyone around me was just praising me and like being like, oh, we'll get you this. Or like, you know what? You, you, you just do what you gotta do. Christian was like, nah, fuck that. are being selfish and you gotta think of him. How is he feeling when he's watching you dying right now? You know, that's the, that's the thing that rattled me the most.

And that was the shift between looking at my circumstance of Cam dying as a victim and then looking at someone who's gonna take accountability and, and take charge and change.

[00:22:57] Katie: So once you had these mindset shifts through the help of Christian, did you go into the the bone marrow transplant in a much better place in terms of resilience and like wanting it to work and it actually being, well, obviously it was successful, right? Yes.

[00:23:15] Michael Brovac: so, it is funny 'cause like, so the thing that was successful, and this is where a lot of people sometimes disagree with me, is 'cause when you look, when you look at it at a medical perspective, you can think, okay, his system grafted, which mean it accepted the cells, right? So then you can say that, okay, Michael's immune system is completely new, which means that's why he's got to where he is. That's false. The reason why it's false is because even when I was grafting in the, in the bone marrow, I was still in a hospital. I was still dying. I was still suicidal. Right? And so when we talk about the. Mental and mindset change that Christian, and like those phrases and those questions and those hard reality checks created, that's what created the change. And so like, as far as like going through the procedure, it sucked. But like, I did it because I had a goal and I had a purpose to do it. Now it wasn't like, okay, my purpose is I want this to kill me so I could be with my brother. It was like, no, fuck that. I want this to succeed and win. So then when he's watching me, he's proud. You know what I'm saying? And then that's how everything just kind of manifested from that point forward. 'cause it was like, okay, shit, now he's speaking at a, an event or he's, he's playing basketball for an hour without pain. Or he's off all of his medications or he's, you know, and that's, that's to me the biggest thing that created the, let's say the catalyst for, for change

[00:24:50] Amanda: I mean it would be easy for people who. Are more lean on the evidence-based or the tangible, the physical to say, while it was the bone marrow transplant that saved your life, but it, I absolutely agree with you that. it was the, it was your mindset 

[00:25:06] Michael Brovac: Yes, 

[00:25:07] Amanda: your life. 

[00:25:07] Michael Brovac: yes. 

[00:25:08] Amanda: went into that with that same energy of, okay, I'm just doing this because my parents want me 

[00:25:15] Michael Brovac: Mm-hmm. 

[00:25:15] Amanda: but I really deep down don't wanna be 

[00:25:17] Michael Brovac: Mm-hmm. 

[00:25:18] Amanda: I feel like the outcome could have been really different. 

[00:25:21] Michael Brovac: Or it was like, I, I didn't tell this story yet, but the way that I changed was I had lymphoma. So lymphoma is cancer of the lymph node, and that's a complication you get during transplant. 'cause again, your body has no defense. So I had cellulitis, which was skin eating disease on my ankle. And then I had lymphoma.

And what happened was one morning I woke up and I had a huge baseball on my neck. And I walk out and my parents are like, what the hell rushed to the hospital? And I get in the operation room and they said to me, if you don't get this removed within 24 hours, you're dead tomorrow. You know what I'm saying?

So it was at that point that it was like, oh shit, this is what I wanted and this is what's happening. This is, this is reality. Right? And then coincidentally, literally after I came out of the surgery, that's when Christian was there. That's when he asked me those tough questions. That's when he said to me, you're more than a kid in a hospital bed. That's when he challenged me. And when I was blaming my brother and blaming my circumstance for why I was sick, he looked at me and he said, how dare you? And he said, you need to be something, doing something to make him smile. Right. So it was like, that's where I believe like faith or purpose or whatever you wanna say comes into play where it's like the uncontrollables sometimes just create your destiny. And I. I've had multiple different occasions being faced with death, especially during that timeframe where like, I should have been dead, but something ca kept me here, you know? And you know, that's where it's like everything for a reason, right? 

[00:26:48] Katie: Do you also think that this is the reason why when certain people get diagnosed with a terminal illness, they miraculously pull through and prove the system wrong? Do you believe that it was. It's kind of like the same process where they've gone through a psychological intervention and they've managed to get to this end point rather than, you know, just saying it's a miracle 

[00:27:14] Michael Brovac: hundred percent. I mean, okay. My, my beliefs are that,

[00:27:20] Katie: I.

[00:27:20] Michael Brovac: this analogy that I learned. So like one of my mentors, Sean Ton, he talks about this analogy called be, do, have. So you have to be the person believe, right? You have to believe to take action to then have the circumstance, right? So if you're believing all you are is a sick kid or weak or chronically ill, right? then you're just doing whatever that leads and you're gonna have sickness and ill and negative, you know, a negative circumstance. But when you frame that and you change it, for example, for me, where it's like, I'm gonna be a coach, I'm gonna be a speaker, I'm gonna play basketball. What did I do? I took action. I journaled, I started drinking water, I started walking. I started to have some sort of goal and trajectory to move forward, which then automatically I had, right? I had the circumstance I once desired. Now, the part where I believe it's like you have to kind of give it up to something you can't control, is you can't guarantee, like there isn't a lot of, I'm very lucky, I'm very privileged to have had Christian come into my life. I'm very privileged and lucky to have my brother be the motivator for who I am today. Right. I'm very lucky to have such a supportive and loving family who is there for me every step of the way. Right. A lot of people don't have those things. So when it comes to unfortunately, that's where yes, you can be doomed to the circumstance.

You can be put in a position where I've, I've even had clients who have been close people to me, family who have been diagnosed with leukemia. And I get to them, you know, a month, way after the time that they got diagnosed and by this time their body is already terminally ill and their cells and everything is rotting, and then a week later they pass away.

Right. Is that something necessarily I could change that they could change or create some sort of like, oh, if I just believe that I was gonna live, sure. everything else has to line up as well.

[00:29:24] Katie: Was movement then quite an important part of your healing journey? 'cause I know you've mentioned basketball a few times.

[00:29:31] Michael Brovac: Oh, sure. Huge. I mean like, okay, so like someone

[00:29:34] Katie: I.

[00:29:35] Michael Brovac: my case study, so I had arthritis in every joint in my body, right? So that's inflammation of the joints. So then if I had that, I don't wanna move, right? And then if I'm not moving, I'm not pumping my lymphatic system, right? If I'm not pumping my lymphatic system, how are my organs gonna properly filter? And then if my kidneys are and I'm just in a bed all day, crunched like this in a posture and I'm not moving or extending, how do you expect to have any change? Right? But back to the last question is like, you have to do that shit, you know, like it's the patient's job to respond to the circumstance. It's the doctor and nurse's job to provide you with the response. So if you're not gonna listen or if you're not gonna do the things that you need to do, you can't be mad at the circumstance. So for me, it was like movement wise, I didn't move a lot of my life because of my arthritis. Then it was like I was four foot 10, you know?

And I, I always felt super insecure about that. And then it was like my kidneys and all these other, so I had Nephrotic syndrome. So my ankles were like this because of water that was just plowed up from not being able to filter. Right. So then all of these things don't motivate you to move. Right. But the thing that does when you have no other option, so when Christian confronted me on all that shit, it was like, Hey, if you wanna play basketball, you gotta learn how to stand up.

You know? Like if you wanna play basketball and learn how to shoot, well, you gotta be able to hold your own weight. So then what would I do? I would get up and I'd do glute bridges in my hospital bed, right when I couldn't even walk. So glute bridges, activate the glutes, make sure everything's pumping right.

Then it's like. From there, I would walk from my hospital bed to the door. Then naturally I would take no wheelchair and I'd walk out the hall. And so, just progressively on a movement scale, like that was a huge influence for me, for my case study. Some people move all the time, but they eat like shit, you know? Or some people move all the time, eat great, but they don't sleep right? Or some people don't drink enough water and they're not hydrated, but they eat, sleep and, and, and, and, you know, move to a certain extent properly, right? So it's like there's so much to take into consideration and like some of the background that I've been able to learn from another mentor and where I'm actually licensed through the Check Institute is you gotta monitor your four doctors, which is Dr.

Movement, Dr. Happy, Dr. Diet, and Dr. Quiet. that's where the medical system, in my opinion, doesn't utilize these things because, well, let's be honest, a lot of these things don't make a lot of money. You know, when this is the, when this, this is the circumstance, it's like the things that are above, even the people who care and actually give a shit to take care of you, they don't even have control over that.

[00:32:21] Katie: We talk about that all the time. Don't me, Amanda? How healing is a multifaceted journey. It's not just one thing, you know, there's many things that have to be taken into account and having that accountability for that person is, yeah, it's so important. 

[00:32:36] Michael Brovac: for sure. No, and that's, that's like, I mean that's where I feel like a lot of people also generally, like in just society, get fitness messed up. 'cause they think fitness is just movement. Right. But study fitness and movement and what your, how your body responds, like with and cortisol and all these other things. It's like, no, you have to train every part of it. Right. It's a lifestyle. It's not just one individual component

[00:33:03] Amanda: And you can't skip over the basics because I'm sure. I'm curious to know if people ask you, when people learn about your story and learn about your transformation, are they looking. For you to tell them. If they were to ask the question, okay, what was the turning point? Or what did you do to change your physical circumstance? then you come out with something like, I drank water and moved my body more and focused on my mindset. I think people want to, they want to hear this big these really in depth strategies that you used because the medical system they steer us in that direction, right?

I feel like so much of treatment is about, looking for that next breakthrough therapy or that next breakthrough drug. And if we're just skipping over the foundations, in my opinion, I don't think we're, you're ever really gonna get to at two. Be able to say that you have true health. If you're not doing those things, if you're not, if you're not addressing those four doctors, like you just brought up, 

[00:34:12] Michael Brovac: No, for sure. I, I totally agree. I mean, I think like, even going back to what I said about money, it's like what we gotta understand is like you are allowing those things to happen, right? Whether we like it or not, every, every circumstance we can be in there is uncontrollable things that are put in place from years and years and years and years and years and years ago, that you're automatically gonna have to suffer the consequences of. Right. But when it comes to the intentions and direct correlation in between these experts and people who actually want to help you, they do want to help you. You know what I'm saying? Like, they do have the intention, at least the majority of them, I would say at least 90% do give a shit about, they want you to succeed, they want you to win.

And I've met some of the greatest people I've ever met have been in hospitals, doctors, physicians, nurses. Right. But when it comes to the foundational principles, to me, I think it just, it gets so lost in the fact that it's too simple. too simple. It's not, it's not complicated. Right? It's like it, are you gonna tell me that I have this rare disease where I'm like one out of 50 cases worldwide, and all you're gonna tell me is drink more water, Or how are you gonna tell me, ah, you have arthritis? 

[00:35:23] Amanda: reject it. You 

[00:35:24] Michael Brovac: Yes. 

[00:35:25] Amanda: of its simplicity. Yeah. 

[00:35:26] Michael Brovac: it's so delusional to you because you're like, no, no, no, I'm this rare thing and it's so unique and I'm special and I'm, you know. But again, that's where it's like the mental component comes into play, like your paradigms, your beliefs and all those things.

And that's where I think the biggest problem is. And that's what, that's what I have seen at least creates actual transformation. Because you have to believe, like again, be, do have, you have to believe that you can overcome something before you overcome it. And that's where I unfortunately will say, the medical system doesn't prep you that way.

It's not, it's not building you into the position of like, instead of being, instead of being reactive to your circumstance, be responsive. You know, they give you the responses, they do a great job of that, but they don't, they don't tailor it to the, the psyche of what you're giving that response to. Right.

And someone who. Doesn't necessarily want to change or doesn't give a shit or doesn't believe that they can change. How are you gonna get them to walk? How are you gonna get them to eat better? How are you gonna get them to, in some circumstance, get treatment, get surgeries, get, you know, like all these things that take a great degree of your own decision-making to, to make happen.

You know? And that's where I think at a base level, that's, that's how I would explain the disconnect between and medical adversity.

[00:36:54] Katie: This is what makes me so mad about the medical system, because I this client who's been poorly since he was a young kid, and he, I. Since he became my client, he honestly has been doing amazing, and his mindset is just phenomenal. And he's been getting so much better.

And he had a conversation with his practitioner, medical practitioner about it, and he just shot every single thing down that he's been doing that has actually made a a difference. And it, it completely destroyed his mindset again. And I'm just like, , how is, how can someone sit there as a medical practitioner and, say that these things aren't working, what we've been speaking about when clearly they have because it's not some, you know, intense crazy medical intervention that he's put him through.

And I'm just, it just, it makes me so mad, honestly.

[00:37:53] Michael Brovac: I, I feel you and, and I mean that. Keep it simple. That's the 10%. Right. So I talked about the 90% who are intentionally there to serve, provide, make you better and do their job right? But then there's the 10% that I've experienced are making it about them, right? And make it so that I'm the hero of their story.

So then therefore I'm the one who prescribes you the meds, the treatments, the surgeries, which then you get successful or you don't because of me, right? When the simplicity factor of it is, oh, this is working, you are healthy, you're better. That's my job. We're doing this together. Right? And that's to keep it very simple.

That's what I would say is the difference is there is 90% of them in the field who I have seen and had the privilege of having in me and my brother's life. You know, I would say up to at least 98% of the physicians and nurses and people who were in me and my brother's life for 18 years were absolutely amazing. You know, they were phenomenal people, great hearted people, always wanted the best. But then, you know, that two, 3% I've experienced it. You know, I'll tell you a really true story that happened to me right after I left the bone marrow. So like was still on five medications after my transplant. So I was on 30 at one point. I got down to five. five that were still on my list were some things like for psychiatry, kidneys a vitamin, and then something else. There was like two more that were whatever. So I'm 20 years old. And for those who have been in the medical system, when you're 18, you changed the adult system, right?

Naturally you have to. So I find that in the adult system, to have empathy and compassion because naturally you can logically say, okay, this person is 60, 70, 80, 90, right? Not to dismiss what they're going through, but then you compare that to a sick kids. Where there's kids who are two years old, three years old, dying. It's a way, way different scale, right? And so for me, I transferred over and I was the young guy in the hospital. And right away you feel the difference right away. You feel the the, the lack of that human connection aspect that I once had with my physicians and immunologists and stuff at Stick Kids for example, right? I go in, they're getting, you know, an understanding of who I am, what I've done. They hear from the past physicians that took care of me and they are talking to me about, you're doing so great, you look amazing, your numbers are great, your blood cell count's. Awesome. You know all this stuff, right? And you can even ask my mom about this story 'cause she was directly impacted by it anyways I go there and the doctors gimme all this praise.

They're like, okay, your kidneys are great, right? Which I'm on a medication for kidneys, so. There's that you're, you're in the sun, you're getting vitamin D. Right? So there's that. Then it's like, I forget the other meds on, but everything that I was on, like to combat symptoms I was succeeding in. Right. The kicker was, so I asked the physician, I go, okay, so you just told me and he told my mom that I'm doing great.

Right? I said, what are the chances of me coming off those medications? I'm only on five now. Right? I was on 30, I'm only on five. And looks at me and he says, honestly, we keep our patients on those for the rest of our rest of their life. mom starts bawling her eyes out. kind of like, okay. Like I recognize it.

Right? starts bawling her eyes out. She's like upset 'cause she just wants this to stop for her son. Right? And she's sick and tired of seeing this everlasting loop of like being shut down or having these setbacks when you feel like you're doing so good. Right. So then I just take it to the chin. We leave and I go to my mom's car with her and my mom's, you know, just calming down and I'm like, you know, taking it in and whatever. And I look at my mom and I said, mom I haven't been taking those meds for a year. And he just told me that I would need to take those for the rest of my life. I said, I wanted you to hear that because now you can fully believe me that I'm okay because the doctor just told you that all my numbers are good. They just told me, they just told you that my kidneys are good and all this and that. I don't, I don't necessarily need those things. And matter of fact, I haven't been taking them. Right. So my mom at the same time was like, oh, I wanna slap you. Right? But like, she's like, she's like, I'm so happy you never told me. And so what me and Christian did was as I started to get healthier, I naturally detoxed. So when I was detoxing. The way I look at it is you have to supplement. And again, I don't recommend this to everyone or anything. You have to do it very, you know, conscientious is if you're on a medication that, for example, arthritis.

Okay, so I was on a medication for arthritis. If you know what arthritis is, it's inflammation of the joint. What causes inflammation? Okay? Stress. factors that create, you know, swelling, right? So what if I stopped consuming or doing or having the things that create that inflammation? What's gonna happen?

Well, naturally you're not gonna have it, right? Does this necessarily work for everything? No, but what I've seen in my experience is when you start to heal, your body naturally rebuilds itself. so during the phases of being in the hospital to then wanting to play basketball, to then training every day, to then journaling, to then meditating to like all my body detox. that was one of the last steps. And I always felt super insecure about taking medications because I would show up to sleepovers and I'd be the only kid that couldn't sleep over because of all these meds. You know what I'm saying? And so one of my dreams was I said to Christian, I would love to be on no meds. then first time ever, again, this is my story, personal story. Anyone listening, I don't consider say go take yourself off meds. No. You gotta do a very proactive and honestly talk to your doctor and everything. But like I go and I come off the meds naturally, of course withdraws different things. But I supplemented with these things that helped my body recover, right? So when I went back two months later, I was even more healthier. So then I asked the doctor again, my mom knows this, right? She knows, oh, he's not even on those meds, right? So we asked the doctor again, I say, well, to be honest, I haven't been taking those for months. He looks at me, and again, this is the 10%, this is not the 90, this is the 10 or the 3% even. He says, okay, let me take them off your chart. So see how quick the dynamic changed. Right? And I share that because anyone who is on medications or feels victimhood to their treatments or medications, they do serve a purpose and you need to do it. But after a purpose, ultimately you are the one who knows your body the best. what's gonna happen is you have to decide how you want to keep on living. you know, if we flip that script and we say, well, Mike, you didn't start moving. You didn't start drinking water. You didn't start journaling. You didn't start meditating.

You didn't start eating healthy. You didn't start sleeping. I have done that. Hell no, been dead. So this is where it's tricky because that's just a firsthand experience story of mine Prove to me, like, okay, well really, who is responsible for this? Me, I'm responsible for my health.

You know, I'm responsible for my own decisions and actions. Especially after you're 18 years old.

[00:45:40] Amanda: I think that you're at like a hundred percent on point, Michael, when you say that. It's in those situations, I think it's often an ego thing more than anything else. If you're dealing with a practitioner who feels 

[00:45:53] Michael Brovac: Mm-hmm. 

[00:45:54] Amanda: Are the one that's. Being responsible for your outcomes, and they wanna be the person, the hero in the story that's getting you the results.

And then you're saying I changed my diet and I started drinking more water and I started journaling and meditating and 

[00:46:09] Michael Brovac: Mm-hmm. 

[00:46:10] Amanda: I feel better. 

[00:46:11] Michael Brovac: Yep. 

[00:46:11] Amanda: There are that small percentage that take that as a hit to the 

[00:46:15] Michael Brovac: For sure. 

[00:46:15] Amanda: why they reject 

[00:46:17] Michael Brovac: For sure. Yeah. Yeah. That, that's where it's like, like my opinion honestly is the biggest problem through all of this is division. That's, that's the biggest problem. I don't, I don't think it has anything to do with your label, whether you are a doctor or a patient or a psychiatrist or whatever your role is. I just believe it's division. And it's not about the greater good of all of us. It's about what can you gain. Right. And that's, that's in everywhere. That's like now I'm a basketball coach who's had the privilege of working in a professional basketball league. Right. And like you see it in this realm too, right?

You see it with players who don't. as a team player when you're in, literally in a team sport. You know what I'm saying? And that's just a human thing. That's not even, that's not even a medical system thing. That's not even a doctor thing. That's not even a patient thing. That's just across the board as human beings.

There is gonna be some people, like the 3%, 10% that I talked about, who do make it about themselves, who do put their own priorities and their own goals over yours when their job is to guide you and lead you. Right. But to generalize everyone and everything as that one specific marker is also a fault. Right. And that's where I feel like there's a huge division between everything. You know, it's, and, and it just, it goes so deep into just our world.

[00:47:42] Katie: Mm. 

[00:47:43] Amanda: Yeah. 

[00:47:43] Katie: ask you, like, on a side note, have you ever sat down with your parents and kind of like unpacked everything and, and really understood how they felt and how they've kind of dealt with everything that you've been through over such a long period of time and how they're feeling now about it all?

[00:48:03] Michael Brovac: Oh yeah. Like I, I am so grateful for my mom and dad and my family as a whole, like my mentor told me this a long time ago, and it was like, you are gonna be the only one that can actually create change. And when you create change, that'll naturally reflect onto those who love you and care the most about you and who are around you all the time.

Right. the one thing that my parents have always done amazingly is they've always, always wanted the best for their kids. They've always been the best parents that you could ever ask for. And because of that. They will do and they would do anything to help me and Kim. something that I'll say is like, they could have told Christian to get the hell out of the room. know, any one of my parents, any one of my family, any one of my close people could have told Christian to leave. Right. They're the ones who allowed him to come into our living room and put that thing on film. You know, they're allowed, they're, they're the ones who allowed him to come visit me consistently. Right. And hear what he had to say. They're the ones who paid for my new dietary changes. Right. They're the one. So when it comes to like us adapting as a unit, it's funny 'cause I know my mom's gonna listen to this 'cause she listens to every, my parents both listen to every one of my podcast videos, whatever.

And this is how actually as a family we've been able to heal. Because as a son it is very difficult to have these conversations sometimes. But as they hear my perspective and my perception of what it was, it changes theirs. And vice versa. And so now we're both able to be on the same page. And my parents have done a phenomenal job.

And my family as a whole has done a phenomenal job of adapting and trusting me, you know? And trusting the changes. Now was it always like that? No, because again, they were in the same circumstance, right? As much as I wasn't open to like these new ways of being and doing, how the hell are they gonna be when they just saw their other son pass away?

[00:50:07] Katie: Hmm.

[00:50:07] Michael Brovac: know what I'm saying? And so the gratitude and grace and respect that I have from my parents, especially my mom and dad, and my aunt, and the people like my cousin and everyone who's been so close in my life is none of them have walked away from it. You know? None of them have, not, cho have chosen to not be a part of my life.

They've all chosen to adapt the conversations we're now able to have as a unit and you know. Create as a family is just, it's beautiful. And something that I aspire to do for my purpose of CAM-O is as much as I'm here to support and help kids in hospitals, like my parents have a unique approach to helping parents, right. And being an example and lead for them. And so my dream is that one day as a family, we can all this, you know, this, this massive change, you know? but for them, they're also on their own healing journeys. And they've, shit, they've, they've had way more years than me of struggle, you know? And it's like, gonna take them the time to do what I've done, but even in a longer term because of that.

Right. And that's something that they have always been super accountable for, despite, the story I told you about when first my mom was so paranoid about the medications, but then yet her son is now saying he's not on medications. You know what I'm saying? She could have told me to get out the house. You know, she could have been like, you're insane. Like, I don't, I don't, I don't trust you. But no, she adapted. Same with my dad. Right. Everyone adapted. They all trusted it. They all led within it. And that's, that's, that's how I would say we have these discussions and grow and be together

[00:51:54] Katie: they must be extremely resilient individuals.

[00:51:59] Michael Brovac: very, very extremely. Yeah. They, I mean, that's one good thing, like one really good thing about our circumstances. Like, you have to, you know, like, mean, there was no option. We, we, we could have all, you know, I, I have no doubt that if I died too, my parents would, would've not been able to, you know, carry along.

Right. And that's, that's something that is a natural thing that I'm so thankful didn't happen. Right? But now we have this great purpose from that circumstance that develops resiliency and develops you know. The, the perseverance that as a family unit you have to carry through. So yeah, my parents and my aunt and my uncle and my cousin, and my mentors and my friends and everyone who's been a part of this are so to be able to, you know, stick with me and shit.

There's been some who haven't, you know, there is some people who I can, I can think that, you know, fell off the boat Right. Or chose to get off because it wasn't clear.

[00:53:04] Katie: Mm.

[00:53:05] Michael Brovac: But now it's a different story. Now it's, you know, it's, interesting to watch

[00:53:10] Katie: Yeah,

[00:53:10] Michael Brovac: and, you know, hopefully that creates change in their lives. Right.

[00:53:14] Katie: yeah, yeah. What would you say to someone who is going through chronic illness and they don't have that support network behind them? To lean on?

[00:53:23] Michael Brovac: Find it. I would say find it. And I would try, if I knew them, of course I would be that. But if there is no foundation for you, we live, we live in a day and age. Now where there is social media, there is podcasts like this, there is internet, there is YouTube, there is Facebook there. You know, it's way more easier to find help and look for what you seek than it has ever been. being chronically ill, I actually did a speech on this at my hospital that I, McMaster University, where my brother passed away and I grew up in, and it was about chronic illness. And what I said was, chronic illness can be illness or it can be a lifestyle change. 'cause the chronic, the word chronic means persisting over a long period of time. So consistency, right? So if you take chronic and you look at illness, does it really have to be illness? No. can be so many other things. And so, but that's your choice. That's your decision. Again, that comes to being accountable for your actions and your decisions to look at that. Right? And talk to your doctors.

Talk to your nurses. Talk to your people you trust and do have, because even if you don't have family for, say, your family is the nurses, your family is the doctors, your family is your friends, your family is the one person you chat with online. Right. And if they don't support that, you gotta find new. it. You know, that's, 

But that's your decision, you know? And if you're stuck in it like I was, probably not gonna take that leap until you have to. it's either death or perseverance. That's, there's no other way,

[00:55:02] Amanda: yeah. And that's basically the work that you're doing through CAM-O. 

[00:55:05] Michael Brovac: Yes. 

[00:55:06] Amanda: love for you to talk a little bit more about what CAM-O 

[00:55:10] Michael Brovac: Hmm. 

[00:55:10] Amanda: you do, and how the inspiration for 

[00:55:14] Michael Brovac: Mm-hmm. 

[00:55:15] Amanda: came about. 

[00:55:16] Michael Brovac: For sure. No, thank you. I would love to talk about that. Yeah. So CAM-O, reason why it's named CAM-O is my little brother's name was Cameron. And so Cameron wanted to be in the military when he was older. That was his dream. He fantasized and his room, like had a wall of just Nerf guns. Like, and when I talk about like, this, kid's like accuracy and ability to shoot and like, even though he was 10 years old, and it's kind of scary that he could do that, you know, like it was, it was very interesting.

And like he always gravitated towards that like military persona, right? And so when Cameron passed, that's something that always stuck with me is even though he was in the circumstance, he had that right? He was like his, his military was my basketball, right? And when I started to get healthy. Naturally when you get healthy and you start changing, you wanna help others.

I think it's just a natural thing. Right? And so as I was transforming into now, not just only being this like story, but also a guide Christian guided me to take certain business courses and certain different, you know, read certain books and look into certain things. And behind CAM-O is military.

You think a CAM-Ouflage, right? So CAM-O, CAM-Ouflage, and then our logo is the circle of life. I believe in order for me to have come to where I am now and serve others in that circumstance, you have to go through the circle of life of losing cam to then bring that forward to other kids and families, right? And so the way the name and everything came to be was one day, actually it was Christmas, 2021, no, 2019, just before COVID now is. That was the time at which I was finally leaving the hospital and I was like listening and I was crying. And I was grinding, right? But I still had this like lack of purpose.

'cause I was like, what can I do with all this? And so lo and behold, we're at our family dinner I've been searching and searching and searching for like something to just keep me motivated and staying on this path. what am I gonna do with my life now? Right? And go to this dinner. Who shows up?

Christian, what does he have on a piece of paper, the word CAM-O. He made me sign the piece of paper. He said, this is your commitment. This is your purpose for the rest of your life. You choose how you build this. And that was how Camel was established. And then from there, it was like that whole year, I took time trademarking it, getting it registered, about what can I do with this brand?

How can I make it, you know, even more broad than just pillowcases as it was as how it started. It was like, okay, now I'm becoming a coach. I want to include that. Now I'm becoming a life coach, a speaker. I wanna include that. And then now it's like I have Michael Vac and I have CAM-O. So they're two different things.

And eventually I wanna make CAM-O into its own charity or non-for-profit. 'cause I wanna get it circulated across all the hospitals. So that's how I came to be. 

[00:58:23] Amanda: And when you, I know that some through some of your speaking engagements, you go back and speak to, staff at hospitals and like what is the message that you share when you speak to these people from that, unique perspective of your transformation? 

[00:58:45] Michael Brovac: keep it short. The biggest thing I always say is that's a human being. That human being has a heart, that human being has beliefs that human being has, likes, wants emotions, feelings. So treat them like it. Don't treat them like their diagnosis. Don't treat them like what they are on a screen or their blood charts.

Treat them as a human. That's what Christian did for me, that's what I do. Anytime I coach someone who is in a hospital who has been hospitalized. When I do speeches, like this workshop I just did about chronic illness, that was my driving home point. I spoke to a bunch of university med school students who were aspiring to be physicians, and I talked about how you have to separate the human component from their diagnosis or illness because at the end of the day, they are a human. And this might be something that's attached to them, but it doesn't have to be, you know? And the way you create change is through treating them as who they are, what they are, and relating to them. Right? And more than anyone outside of me, outside of tv, outside of athletes, outside of people they look up to outside of social media, they have the most influence.

And that's what I always say. I'm like, you have. The most influence and possibility to change this person's life outside of your education, outside of what you learn through school, outside of your brilliance. You just being a human being who they trust and depend on to guide them through this circumstance.

That's all you need be able to create some sort of, or inspire some sort of transformation along with the great resources and tools you may have that get you to that point. So that's, that's what I would say in a nutshell. I try to replicate or explain or speak to any physicians or doctors or nurses or med school students or people who are in the system who care to listen to what I have to say. 

[01:00:40] Amanda: That's amazing. 

[01:00:41] Michael Brovac: Thank you. 

[01:00:42] Amanda: That's, and it's so important. It's it absolutely. And Katie and I speak about this often about how, so often a person is handed a diagnosis or a prognosis, they have the choice whether they're going to let that define them or not. And I think that educating doctors on how powerful that is and what a big role that plays is really how we're going to evoke change from a top down position

[01:01:16] Michael Brovac: sure, 

[01:01:17] Amanda: medical system that we 

[01:01:18] Michael Brovac: for sure. No, I, I always say too, like a word that I always use to describe them is I say, you are an authority. You are an authority position in their life. So therefore, they have to listen to you. They have to hear what you have to say. So when you do talk and when you do give advice, when you do offer your help, make it count. know? And where I think if people understood more. About the human connection and component between a nurse to patient or doctor to patient, or patient to patient or family to family or whatever you wanna say is like, at the end of all this, we're just all human. You know? We're all human and we're all looking for the same things, so why don't we utilize those things that brought us to this point. You know? That's, that's how I see it.

We've talked a lot about hospital and medical system and treatments and like the lifestyle side to things, I think we could kind of shift into like, okay, with knowing all of this, where do you take it? You know, all these shifts and changes and, and examples and, and ideas. It's like how do you go forward with it? Right? And so like, something I'll start off with is like, you have to be willing to have an open mind to accept these things, but when you accept these things, you have to also be willing to take action on those things. And when you take action, that's how it creates the reality that you then live. And so for me, it was like when I took action basketball from being someone who is four foot 10 arthritis every joint in my body, chemotherapy, no hair. Just stick to like going outside of my backyard practicing form, shooting to now this past year with my team, we just won a championship in a professional basketball league. You know, as a coach working with professional basketball players, it's like, how does that, how does that create, what is the, the thing that created that was the small steps in between that then allowed universe or God to bless me with this opportunity to meet my mentor and Brother Logan who asked me to be a part of the team.

You know? And then all my other coaches and players who like mentored me and helped a young Michael who like had all this knowledge and like education and excitement, but then learned what it was like to be a coach and like teach youth and like all these things, right? And then it's like someone who recorded themselves on Instagram day to day to learn how to speak, to now doing talks in front of 500 to a thousand people, you know? It's like, how did that, well, again, you start, you take little actions, and again, you have to be open-minded to the transformation of it. Right? And then being someone who always needed medical help and always needed treatment, and always needed people to look after me, it's like, okay, well now I'm able to treat and help others as a trainer, as a holistic life coach, working outta gyms, working with kids in hospitals, you know, building this thing.

And so, I don't know, I, I think that's how we can maybe spark some more questions about that, or we could just end it off on that. 'cause that's kind of the whole full circle, you know, transformation of what's come to today,

[01:04:42] Katie: With that being said, and going back to talking about CAM-O, how do you envision CAM-O evolving in the next few years?

[01:04:53] Michael Brovac: I will make sure that by the time that I am not alive, CAM-O is involved in every single hospital across and America. That is my goal and the way it's gonna be involved is pillow cases by CAM-O treatments, meaning that help you produce like courses. So courses on what to do when you are dying in a hospital. Right? How do I become productive as a sick kid in a hospital bed? Well, boom, camel's got a course for that, right? Discord servers, Facebook groups with kids all across the world, and teenagers and adults who are in hospitals connecting with each other, learning these modules, learning these things, growing, becoming better as a unit, and then having more coaches certified under Camel, which then go into hospitals. You know, like this is like, is like my life legacy, right? And I'm hoping me talking to this podcast, I don't think anyone could do it other than me. But, that's why we talked about trademarks and everything. But but that's, that's kind of where I see CAM-O evolving and I want to make it, it's such, it's so much bigger than just, you know, a name or like a, a great story.

It, it is, it is a, a catapult for change it is a catapult for, you know, a new, a new generation of people who have been in the circumstance. Me and Kim were one sin.

[01:06:23] Katie: I.

love that. That is so powerful.

[01:06:25] Michael Brovac: Thank you. Yeah. 

[01:06:26] Amanda: And ultimately we could, any one of us could sit back and complain about our personal circumstances or we can complain about. The circumstance of our medical system and the things that we don't like, but you're absolutely right. The only way that we create change is by taking action. And I applaud you for 

[01:06:48] Michael Brovac: Thank you. 

[01:06:49] Amanda: vision 

[01:06:50] Michael Brovac: Thank you. 

[01:06:51] Amanda: and the guts to speak 

[01:06:53] Michael Brovac: Mm. 

[01:06:53] Amanda: say, this is something that I am putting out into the world and this is going to become my legacy because it matters. And you're committed to creating change. 

[01:07:05] Michael Brovac: to, I think like, I mean, I'll just, like everyone who knows me, like I, I should be dead, you know, like I'm, I should have been dead so many times. I've come close to death, so many different occasions. And know, that's one thing that always pushes me is like the feeling like, don't get me wrong, facing death absolutely sucks.

You know? It really does. you come out of it and you have those experiences that anytime you're ever down or doubting yourself, you can look back on. the thing that like. I will never quit. I'll never stop because of that. You know, and something deeper than that is like even the death of my brother, you know, witnessing seeing it and, you know, holding him when, when he passed, and all these things that a typical 15-year-old would never, ever want to experience. You know, visualize that now, you know, I, I'll meditate on those days because it is a constant reminder. It is a constant proof of evidence that like, this is, this is what I am here for this is what I need to do it for. It's not even about me. know, it's about Cam, it's about my family. It's about the people who I care to serve and try to help and inspire, you know? and so thank you for sharing that and saying that. I really appreciate it. that's, that's how I want to, I guess, be remembered and known as, you know, life goes on.

[01:08:36] Katie: So in terms of your own health, your, in remission, do you still visit the hospital or, okay. That's awesome.

[01:08:43] Michael Brovac: the way,

[01:08:44] Katie: I.

[01:08:44] Michael Brovac: the way I explain it is like, okay, think of this. So this is another thing, right? It's like people I think put, like, when you think of healing or you think of being healed is like something that you never leave or you never do not experience. That's not the case. Because the reality of it, and this, this was a huge shift for me, was I remember being in the hospital and grafting, right?

So grafting means accepting the new cells from a bone marrow, right? So technically in their chart and in their studies, I'm healed. I don't have Ipec syndrome, right? why the hell am I still dying in a hospital then? know what I'm saying? And I remember when I was in that state, it sucked because it was like, this is what I worked for, this is, this is what healing is. And the truth of it is, no, I wasn't healed. I was given a chance, you know? And so it all goes back to the whole action thing. And so if I don't take care of myself, if I don't sleep, if I don't eat, if I don't drink, if I don't, you know, the four doctors, if I don't monitor these four things, I'm going to the hospital. You know, they're like, my friends always joke around with me and they know, like I just recently was I just had a trip where I did a speech in Burlington and then I went to see two of my best friends in Edmonton and Calgary. Now you got plane rides, you got hotels, you got lack of nutrition, lack of sleep, all this shit, right? first 24 hours sucked. And my friend was so worried about me. Because here I am in this ho hotel room, not slept, not drank, not healthy. And I'm coughing and I'm mucusy and I'm like, it seems like I need to go to the, you know, he was freaking out. But I'm like, dude, no, this is, this is what I pay for. You know, like I, I made this choice and now this is what I have to do.

And I told you that, you know, I can't go to the gym after this eight hour, four hour plane ride because I need to sleep. And if I go to the gym and I exert more, I'm gonna get sick. Right? So it's like lifestyle now is just constant accountability. And if I'm not constantly accountable, I pay for it. And that's where, you know, an example for kids or people who look up to me, or like patients and people who I, I, I aspire to impact is like, just because you might graft or you might get healed or you might feel better, doesn't mean you're actually healed.

It just means you're in the natural state that you're living, know? And our bodies are. These things that take hits and impact over time and time and time again. That naturally as you age and as you get older, shit will break down, but you have to take action to monitor it. Right. For me, I've just been in this circumstance where I'm 24 years old, but like I have the body of probably a 65-year-old, you know, with all the stress and, and issue that I've had on my organs and different problems that I've had.

So then that means I have to show up as if I was a 65-year-old and, you know, monitoring that I can't just go party and drink and, and all that shit that most kids my age are doing. You know? And that's, you know, it's a blessing. It's a blessing. 'cause it keeps me, it monitors me. It sucks. Fuck, it sucks. You know, like, I mean, I wish I could do majority of that shit, but it's like, the moment I do, I'm like, you know, I'm, I, I hate it.

Like even we just won our championship and I was partying with the guy celebrating. I told the guys all season I'm like. I'm not going out with you during the season when we win the championship, I will. Right. And then I do it, and I'm outta remission for like two weeks because I, I spent four nights out till four in the morning.

You know what I'm saying? And that's, that's just a reality, and that's what I accept. You know? So that's how I would explain my health now and then, like, as like a logistic standpoint, it's like I'm on zero medications. The only time I go to a hospital is to help others. I don't like, I haven't had a surgery or anything like that within the last, I wanna say, four or five years. I haven't been admitted in the hospital probably four or five years. I've had hiccups, you know, I've had checkups, I've had, you know, but again, that's me being reminded, yo, slow down. Right? Relax, 

[01:12:58] Amanda: Yeah. 

[01:12:59] Michael Brovac: that's. 

[01:13:00] Amanda: a constant it's your body likes to be in homeostasis. And there's always gonna be things that kinda upset that. 

[01:13:07] Michael Brovac: Yes, 

[01:13:07] Amanda: a readjustment. 

[01:13:08] Michael Brovac: a hundred percent. 

[01:13:10] Amanda: it's funny that you, Yeah, It's funny that you bring up travel, because that's one of travel is one of my greatest loves in life.

I love to travel, but it's also a trigger for me. It's also stress. It also disrupts my balance. And then I pay for it

[01:13:27] Michael Brovac: Yeah, 

[01:13:28] Amanda: Yeah, 

[01:13:29] Michael Brovac: no, you get it. That's, it's exactly, yeah, that's, and that's like, I actually like it a lot more, you know, because I mean, if, if I got this way because of a bone marrow, everyone would be taking bone marrows. You know what I'm saying? 

[01:13:44] Amanda: it, 

[01:13:44] Michael Brovac: Like, that's, that's what my mentor said to me a long time ago.

Because I did believe at one point that the reason I was successful, 'cause again, I was taught all through my life, like it's all about medications and surgeries and, and all. Again, they have a place, but they're not. The thing that's gonna ultimately change you. Right. And I remember my mentor was like, okay, well if that's the case, why isn't every other patient of theirs alive? know,

[01:14:08] Katie: Mm

[01:14:09] Michael Brovac: other patient of theirs doing what you're doing?

[01:14:11] Katie: mm Yeah.

[01:14:13] Michael Brovac: What's, the disconnect?

[01:14:14] Katie: Mm.

[01:14:15] Michael Brovac: And I was like, ah. And then that gives me confidence. that's like, oh shit, you know what? I have earned this. Right? This isn't just given to me. And then that's where it's like I do deep reflecting and I'm like, oh yeah, when I was grafted, I was still dying in a hospital. You know? So it's like, not to shit on that, but it's like, that's just the reality. It's like, what are you gonna do from

[01:14:35] Katie: Mm-hmm.

[01:14:35] Michael Brovac: Right? It's the, it's the prolonging of it all So, yeah.

[01:14:41] Katie: Yeah. You've gone through the ultimate journey of learning how to tune into your body, which is so beautiful.

[01:14:47] Michael Brovac: it is. And I'm so grateful for it. It sucks at times. It's tough. I get angry sometimes 'cause I'm like, fuck, I wish I could. You know, do this, or I could go here, I could be this, or I could, you know. then it's like, Nope. Reminder, reminder, reminder. You're different, Mike. You're different. You got to, you know, you're different for a reason.

That's it. That's all it is. Right? So you adapt?

[01:15:13] Katie: Help the people.

[01:15:15] Michael Brovac: Yes. 

[01:15:16] Amanda: of Think that a person that endures more struggle in their life is maybe just made for a bigger purpose. Maybe those struggles were there to test you 

[01:15:29] Michael Brovac: Or sure. 

[01:15:30] Amanda: you could rise to a

[01:15:31] Michael Brovac: sure. 

[01:15:33] Amanda: a bigger mission. 

[01:15:34] Michael Brovac: For

[01:15:34] Katie: Mm.

[01:15:35] Michael Brovac: I, hope, like, like honestly, my biggest thing is like anytime I do a speech, and it's funny 'cause like even my best friends who are like my videographers, come out to every speech. They come out to every event, right? So they've heard me say this thing so many times, right? to them it's like repetitive because it's like, we know you, we, we've heard this, right? then anyone, someone hears it for the first time, it's like, holy crap. Right? And so like my whole goal is like, when I do do it, and when I do share, when I do episodes like this or when I, you know, do talks is like, if that initial reaction is like, holy crap, if he can do that, what am I capable of?

That's all I care about. what I'm saying? Like, that's, that's why I'm so honest and like authentic and try to be as real as I can be with all this stuff. Because it's like, it's, that's, that's it. Like, I mean, I'm not, I'm not gonna try and hide things, you know? a big part of my life, I was ashamed and like, guilted and like all these things, and it's like, I'm just gonna try and be as transparent and open and honest as I can be, know?

And that's, that's at the end of the day, just my integrity

[01:16:47] Katie: where can people find you, Michael, if they wanted to get in contact?

[01:16:53] Michael Brovac: you guys can find me at Michael Brovac on all social medias. So I know my last name kind of sounds a bit iffy, but it's B-R-O-V-A-C. Then you can find me@mywebsitesCAM-O.ca can find me at my other website, michaelbrovack.ca. honestly, if you just google my name, a lot of things will pop up I'm very receptive.

I'm very open to chatting with people just like me and Amanda met, right? And that's, that's how this all comes to be. So if anyone wants to reach out, chat, out, a discussion about this, I'm more than open. So look forward to hearing guys. 

[01:17:32] Amanda: Thank you so much for being here today and for being so open and sharing so honestly about your story, and it really is making a big impact in the world. 

[01:17:43] Michael Brovac: Mm 

[01:17:43] Amanda: you for the work that you're doing on all levels, on your speaking and your CAM-O initiatives and just the human being that you 

[01:17:52] Michael Brovac: mm

[01:17:52] Katie: Yes. Thank you.

[01:17:53] Michael Brovac: I really, no, I really appreciate you girls. 'cause like, I mean, without you guys offering me this platform or even taking the time to talk to me, none of this gets out, you know? thank you. And I love what you guys are doing and represent and it really hits close to home. So please do not stop.

[01:18:14] Katie: Aw, thank you.

[01:18:16] Amanda: Thank you. 

[01:18:17] Michael Brovac: course, of course.